Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. In my opinion, the rougher the idle the better! (You can find an instructional video of how to do just that on our Clay Smith Cams YouTube Channel;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s ). Selecting a camshaft for a given engines purpose usually involves a compromise between low- or high-end power options, and the lobe separation angle (LSA) is one of those factors where engine builders have to make a choice between those priorities. To further minimize any dyno variations, the engine's oil and water temperatures were kept the same for each pull. by ANT Thu May 15, 2003 6:44 pm, Copyright 2022, S&S Motorsports LLC, All Rights Reserved - Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. kinda off topic.. but while we're on the topic of cams, duration,lift,ect has anybody heard of using high compreshion (13:1) on pump gas, by useing alot of duration? The balance of midrange torque and top-end horsepower lends this LSA range to the majority of street/strip engines. so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. ALL bolts are ARP. I'd run it, just be sure to check valve to piston clearance, coil bind and retainer to guide boss/seal clearance. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is comparatively a wider LSA; it can generate a massive amount of RPM for the engine. It's the scavenging effect of the high velocity exhaust gases rushing out that pulls the fresh fuel/air charge into the chamber. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. Because the lobes are closer together on the 101 LSA cam, the intake closing point is advanced (closes earlier) and the piston has more time to build compressionexactly what the gauge showed. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. However it is at the expense of a small amount of bottom end power and idle quality, due to the increased overlap. you cannot just take a random change in a lobe separation angle and say 1 is better than the other. I just installed a Comp Cams XE262 in a 9:1 350 with stock iron heads. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. thanks. Getting back to the sound of an engine, its no secret that a raucous, lumpy idle is often preferred by street cruisers, regardless of the ill manners and inefficiency of such an engine setup. A 112-114 degree lobe center will have a better idle and produce more vacuum with less overlap. I am pretty sure, right now, you find yourself in the middle of the rising debate of 106 vs 110 lobe separation angle. 106 LSA: As you know, the intake and exhaust lobes centerline distance is known as lobe separation angle. 1-4 It is one of the most common neurological disorders worldwide, 1-5 is among the most common . Lobe Separation Angle, or LSA, is the number of degrees that separate the peak lift points of the cam's intake and exhaust lobes. by mrsmythe Wed May 14, 2003 2:26 am, Post 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . Noah knows a lot about whats happening in the car industry with the latest piloting productions thanks to his professional experience. This is very critical for manifold vacuum, throttle response, emissions, and gas mileage. 292S-112: 292/292 - 240/240 - .495/.495 - 112* - 3400-7200. Known as "The Gladiator" around Westech Performance, this Dart SHP blockbased, 370ci, small-block Chevy has made thousands of dyno pulls testing all manner of heads, intakes, cams, and every other crazy thing us magazine folk have coerced Westech's Steve Brul to bolt to it. Big strokers like tighter LCA but it really depends on your combo and usage, theres great OTS cams but for a custom engine a custom cam is the way to go With identical cam lobes you won't see a bit of difference. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. 01 Choosing the right lobe separation angle for your LS cam shouldn't cause anxiety. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. by xstfudonniex Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm, Post 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? Also present during testing was a set of 1 7/8-inch Kooks headers, Comp hydraulic roller lifters, and F-body oil pan. A wide LSA reduces valve overlap, softens the idle and improves overall drivabilityespecially on the street where performance engines benefit from 112 to 114 LSA. Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. GRIND #: CRB3 3194 /3196 HR111. . Pontiac 326 Vs Chevy 327 Differences & Similarities. 112-110 Deg. If you want a lumper idle go with a cam with 108 LSA, the tigher the LSA the idle will be rougher. Similarly, 110 LSA is also found to be a more fabulous performer in several mechanical aspects. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. Good luck. I don't think your duration figures are too outlandish and with the tight LCA and high lift, it should make some big torque. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. 04 Minor modifications to the factory windage tray were necessary to work with the new stroker assembly. In the 106 LSA, the engine can reach the maximum torque, making the driving more efficient and saving energy. The higher the compression and the higher you try and rev it, the more it will like a wider lobe center. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) = Tight Below 104 Deg. Come here to talk with others who like to drive fast. If identical and for a given displacement the 110 will give more power. You get a better idle, vacuum, and response from a 112o-114o lobe. I'd also go to a 110-112 lobe separation angle. by MELWAY Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 pm, Post Once more the engine came apart to install the third test cam, a 107 LSA. No, it is not even close to the ultimate performance grind most would have picked. But this is not the only reason. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. Usually, an old gas tank is responsible for a vehicle bogging down during acceleration. The SAME can be said. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. Now that we have a basic understanding of lobe separation angle, we can put together a test to illustrate just what happens when you make changes to it. Boom, you get the lobe separation angle of that engine. Camshafts with a substantial overlapping tendency should not be used in vehicles driven on public streets. 106 LSA: 106LSA results in a decrease in piston-to-valve clearance. Nothing makes mouths drop like a car that sounds and looks like it can't keep it self still! by SStrokerAce Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:22 am, Post After spending 8 years in plant production engineering, Noah wanted to join Engine Addiction as a key member of all cars specific guides, reviews, repairs, suggestions, and more. The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. The exhaust has an opening even and a closing event. General topics - 76 LA built, CA car with m20. It should still make close to 600hp and 600tq in my 512" stealth headed big block. Thats just the way the customer wants to roll, and engine builders find its easy to deliver such a powerplant. by randy331 Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:00 pm, Post The final cam was tighter still, with a 108-degree LSA. So, sit tight back and explore. The 30-30 Duntov is on the high end of the duration recommendation. Again, these are general bits of conventional wisdom. The ported heads were capable of supporting over 700 hp, so we knew they would not be restrictive on our stroker. On the surface, the camshaft's job is simpleopen and close the valvesbut beyond that topical description, it's one of the most mysterious and misunderstood engine components. You must log in or register to reply here. Frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE), the second most common focal epilepsy syndrome after temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE), is frequently drug-resistant and MRI-negative. Aug 20, 2006. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. I have seen a dyno test where an engine using identical duration and lift made more peak power with a 112 LSA than a 110 LSA. Knife edged & profiled 4MA Cleveland crank weighing 50lbs. That means your engine can produce more power with a minimum amount of fuel combustion. Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. by 3V Performance Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:38 pm, Post My duration will be about 230 degrees. That lopey idle that is universally loved, and part of the allure of a tight LSA cam, is actually misfire caused from a combination of exhaust dilution in the intake manifold and poor cylinder filling at idle. from the intake to the exhaust and vise-versa.Thats why a performance cam will usually have a rougher idle than a stock one. The stock valvesprings supplied with the CNC LS3 heads were swapped out in favor of a set of dual springs from Brian Tooley Racing. 112 will have a smoother idle, a wider power band, and will work better with fuel injection. This cam split the difference between the 101 and 113 down the middle, and in theory should have walked the line between the results of the last two tests in every waywhich it did. That notion is completely false. All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. *If you do not have enough vacuum, you can in some cases install a vacuum canister or reservoir, which works by storing the peak vacuum in the reservoir. . The second cam would have a rougher idle, produce more torque and would rev quicker. 2023 Power Automedia. Some prefer a narrow powerband, and some prefer the broader one. If you drew a line that divided the intake lobe in half right at the point of maximum lift, then did the same to the exhaust lobe, then measured the distance in cam degrees between the two, that would be the lobe separation angle. You are using an out of date browser. While a cam with a 108 lobe center will idle rougher. I would have to say that your cam choice sounds like a winner to me. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Your best bet would be to talk to one of the experts at a cam company to get a custom grind if you're that into the specs. 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As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. 03 The 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods were combined with a set of forged asymmetrical pistons from JE. on average with a N/A motor if you stick the two cams in at the track the tighter lsa will be faster at the expense of idle quality. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. These numbers can vary a few inches one way or the other, depending on several other aftermarket factors and your individual engine specifications, so you may want to check your vacuum once the cam is installed. Higher overlapping lets less oil fall through the oil inlet. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? Changing the lobe separation angle changes the amount of overlap that exists during the time the intake and exhaust valves are both open, echoes Doug Patton of Pro Line Race Engines. Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. A narrower LCA will increase valve overlap and close the (intake) valve earlier, which explains the typical rougher idler and more midrange behaviour. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. I just bought a 86b Webcam with 112 lobe centers for my 2276. It will sound lovely I'm sure. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? In this segment, I am going to compare those two lobe separation angles based on a couple of mechanical factors. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. More over-simplifications: The wider lobe separation angle closes the intake valve later and reduces cylinder pressure, so that is where it's detonation resistance comes from. 110 LSA: But here, quite surprisingly, you have to face the reduction of the EGR effect due to the 110 LSA. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. For any additional clarification or questions please contact our Tech Line at 714 523-0530. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57gfBu8uc6k&t=1s. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. by ANT Mon May 12, 2003 1:47 pm, Post These favorable mechanical features depict the powerful acceleration capacity of the engine with higher oil and energy consumption rate, overheating problems, and other mechanical problems. 110 LSA: But, contrarily, at 110 LSA, you dont have to face the problem of engine knocking. Maybe even 114. A cam with a tighter LSA will require a looser torque converter, may not be able to run vacuum-assisted brakes, and doesn't play nice with fuel injection. A wider lobe center will give you more overall torque (comes in earlier and stays later). by bug1914 Tue May 13, 2003 2:56 am, Post They also reduce stress on the outdrive. For your convenience, I am providing a comparison table to give you an overall idea about the comparison. If the overlap phase occurs too early, it will create an overly rich condition in the exhaust port, severely decreasing the gas mileage. I just bought a 86b Webcam and Im using 1.5's. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. This wave tuning is what helps performance engines achieve volumetric efficiencies of more than 100 percent. Leave the 108 for solid rollers turning big rpms. 106 LSA: The overlapping is higher as 106 LSA is comparatively tighter LSA than 110 LSA. It also depends on displacement, some guys will run a bigger cam and widen the LCA to give a better idle but in my opinion it kills power. Meaning the lower lobe seperation will have a very quick and fast powerband (Snappy!) Tight lobe separations, such as 108 or shorter, will cause the peak torque to build earlier in the RPM range and peak-out in a short amount of . Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. whats the difference in how the car will run. Anybody do any real testing on LSA in a 3.75 stroke small block chevy?I have always used 104-106 and was thinking about trying a 108 or 110 design.I know there is a lot of variables but just a general opinion from any experts.This is for motor only no nitrous.600-640 HP engine combos.Much appreciated! AquaTraction Vs SeaDek: Which One Is Better For you? Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. 1-3 Cognitive impairment is common in both FLE and TLE and adversely impacts quality of life and psychosocial functioning. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. If that accessory still does not assist the cam in producing enough vacuum, then as a last resort you can use a vacuum pump. Exhaust reversion is another undesirable side effect that can be caused by overlap. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. But, after comparing these two LSA based on a few mechanical aspects, such as maximum Torque, RPM, powerband, oil consumption, and many more, you will find the 106 LSA with better performance output. So, the 110 LSA engine is a suitable choice for people prone to be the fan of a powerful engine with mighty acceleration power. Re: Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110. I'm sorry to disagree with that incredibly well written article, but lobe separation by itself is absolutely freaking meaningless. I don't know about 13 to one but I have seen 12 to one on a 350 chev in hot rod article, BUT the guy soft petals around on the street with no full throttle use and puts racing gas in at the track. The other thing is that you can make more power with a smaller aftermarket cam. Introduction. So, without wasting any moment, lets find out the answer. Come join the discussion about restoration, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! To demonstrate changes to lobe separation in action, we ordered three camshafts from Comp Cams, all ground with identical lift (0.541 intake and 0.537 exhaust) and duration (230 intake and 236 exhaust) but with three different LSAs: a 101, a 107, and a 113. Mike Magda is a veteran automotive writer with credits in publications such as Racecar Engineering, Hot Rod, Engine Technology International, Motor Trend, Automobile, Automotive Testing Technology and Professional Motorsport World. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. Is There a Sequence? ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. You can research your heads to find out where yours are, but honestly I don't think it will be worth the effort on a tow vehicle. Thanks for the replies so far. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. its got a 3.73 posi and the Stock 4 speed with a very low 3.42 1st gear. 2.1.2.4.2 Side-lobe suppression shall be provided in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.2.1.5.2.1 on all Mode S-only all-call interrogations. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got!" Let's just talk lobe sep angle. This may be of concern if you have vacuum assisted accessories, such as power brakes or steering. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. However, finding them might be challenging if you dont have any prior knowledge. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. The result sounded wonderful, but it didnt rev as enthusiastically and it made 30 less horsepower than normal, says Lawrence. The power and torque curve lay directly in between the last two cams, as did the peak horsepower and torque, 488.7 at 6,200 rpm and 487.1 at 4,600 rpm, respectively. Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! in some cases,, the average torque can equal out. The piston and cylinder damage possibility is pretty low at 110 LSA. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! It is an important note you must keep; due to the lobe separation angle, there creates an overlapping of intake valve opening time and exhaust valve closing time and vice versa. 108: 110: 112: 114 . It produces peak torque earliercoming on quicker and strongerbut also it falls off quicker too. Engine knocking generally occurs when the burning of the fuel by the engine is uneven. Equipped with the 120-degree (LSA) cam, the hybrid stroker produced 570 hp at 6,200 rpm and 535 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 rpm. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. The Wastegate works by releasing the pressure built inside, Read More What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms?Continue, Oops! not exactly true, Ive seen custom grinds that are on 108 lca, smooth idle, high vacuum an even able to run efi, usually on an off the shelf cam it is true. Tests 2 and 3 meant dissecting the motor on the dyno to get the old cam out. TH400 Vs Powerglide: Which One is Ideal for You? by farmer Mon May 12, 2003 3:14 pm, Post You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. But remember, although a broader powerband has a couple of acceleration advantages, it also comes with a few drawbacks. A narrower lobe separation angle can provide less power but can also lead to less wear. The 110 is probably a better choice for a performance street engine. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. 09 All testing was run through a set of 1 3/4-inch long-tube headers and 3-inch exhaust. If you take any of the . Builds More High-RPM Power Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clearance Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clearance EFFECTS OF CHANGING LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE (LSA) Tighten (smaller LSA number) Moves Torque to Lower RPM Increases Maximum Torque Narrow Power band Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure Increase Chance of Engine Knock Increase Cranking Compression Its also critical that valve overlap is kept to a minimum as the induction system can create a suction that pulls water into the motor, adds Bolander. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. This comparison highlights that the 106 LSA is a good performer in a few mechanical aspects than the 110 LSA. I have used some cut on a 110 that worked well too, but they never sounded as good as the tight ones. Consequently, decreased torque rate often leads to more energy consumption. What Are The Wastegate Stuck Open Symptoms? Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? Either learn to fix it, or learn to write checks. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. The 108 LSA offered the lowest idle vacuum of the three (down 4 inches). 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. Before getting to the cam profiles, we had to make sure we had a reasonable test engine. The lobe separation angle is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes, says Eric Bolander of Erson Cams. I think the compression ratio has something to do with LSA too.
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